a froot bat sighting... by someone called "dillon", not ben at all! *gasp*

weird.

Archived comment by Crion87:
Look, I may eat meat (and lots of it, yum yum) but I generally agree that the treatment of battery hens is rather distasteful at best. We have free-range chickens at home, they produce eggs for us. If we bought a chicken specifically for killing, we would not name it, but we would still treat it like we treat our other chickens.


The animals don't exist like humans - they are merely creatures that God put on this green earth for us to consume. And I am on the Aktins Eating Program, a low-carb diet, and I have felt better than I have in a long time. Sure, I eat meat, in fact I relish it. But I prefer to eat meat that came from an animal had a decent f*&$ing life!

Archived comment by Ouijibug:
A way-late comment for new readers who read the archives... (Hi, there.)

a) Bees, while being individually simplistic, demonstrate some kinda freaky intelligence, because bees have a (very, very basic) language.

b) I think this comment by Paul McDermott, an Australian comedian/satirist, says it all:

"I confess that I am an eater of meat. I have tried over the years to acquire a taste for vegetables and fruit but I have always failed. I understand why vegetarian groups cry, "Meat is murder." I agree with them, but there is something so damn satisfying about consuming a beast that has died for you. It is tribal and instinctive: to stop its heart, ingest its soul, steal its spirit. I cannot imagine any similar joy in stealing the soul of a carrot."

Archived comment by Andy:
Um...maybe it's me, but I don't think this was an attack on veganism(?) at all, and no apology or explanation is necessary for including the quote. Please, can we sometimes be a little LESS PC? Besides, we all know vegans are evil.

Archived comment by Aaron Wolf:
OK, the bee thing. Don't the same bees that make honey also pollinate plants that produce veggies and fruit? Also if bees are "exploited animals" or "animals" per se then aren't locusts also? I'm pretty sure locusta are trying to deprive vegetarians of their food supply. THEY ARE THE ENEMY. 'nuff said

Archived comment by Meateater:
If God didn't want us to eat meat, then why are animals made of meat?

Archived comment by Sarah:
Mike

Chukkar are darling little plump birds, much like pheasant, except much draber (i.e. brown, black and gray). Where we live, there are actually wild flocks, and we have been known, on occasion, to let some of our chukkar fly and be free with their bretheren (all the better for us to go out and hunt them!)

Oh, and by the way. We have a hard and fast rule. Never eat anything you give an actual name to. It's too disturbing to the mind. (Exceptions to this rule are naming the turkeys Chris and Thanks, and the pigs Sausage and Bacon.) GRIN!

I look at the whole argument this way. If people want to be vegetarians, more power to them. It leaves more meat for the rest of us.

Archived comment by Kate:
I find it fascinating that you don't think that advertising is a form of coersion. I fully agree with that stance, but many people do no see the situation that way. Let us shift perspective for a moment.

Is the show "Will & Grace" advertising a lifestyle that is repugnant to some people? Yes. Does the book "Heather has Two Mommies" provide a non-mainstream view of family, and thus promote the idea that "everybody" isn't exactly the same, and that there are different ways to do something as fundamental as have a family and raise children? Yup.
So, the availability of a point of view, and the active pomotion of that point of view does have power. How many groups of people faught for and against positive gay characters on TV?

The answer is not for the minority group to majority bash, but to out propaganda the majority. Society is propelled by the extremist fringe (see your history books about the American Revolution). The edges push against the middle, until finally thier message is seen as commonplace, and ordinary. When you see soy milk in every grocery store (Like I do here in Salt Lake City), and you see Tempeh sold in Super Targets, you know the tide is turning.

The first meal my mother cooked for my brohter and I after my parents got divorced was some sort of vegetable croquets. I rmemeber the shock I had over the idea that you could have a MEATLESS meal. I have quite a few of them now or days, but I am no vegetarian. I have, however, had the experience of deliberately maniuplating my diet to achieve a mental goal (I lost a bunch of wieght). I found myself in kind of a mad scientist daze at points, trying new things every week, and watching the results. I felt much better when I ate a diet higher in carbs than protein, but higher in protein than I usually eat now.

Archived comment by The Laughing God:
"To the guy who wanted logical argument: blecht! Logic don't mean a thing. "

I am... humbled. Actually, I don't even know how to respond to this save to say that any argument or case not based in logic isn't going to change anyone's mind. I just find it interesting that you say it don't mean a thing, and yet proceed to lay out a fairly logical argument afterward. Or at least the basis for one.

As for the "hardcore" part of veganism, you most certainly do have the right to advertise your point of view. Huzzah for freedom of speech! However, some vegans go way overboard, pushing way past the boundaries of what's acceptable. "Advertising" is not forcing your beliefs on others and that's what many do.

Me, I occasionally try to actively convert people away from vegetarianism. But I'm just doing it to be antagonistic.

Archived comment by Montygirl:
Ok, maybe killing chickens and pigs and cows is cruel, but you must agree with me that killing sheep is actually putting them out of their hellish misery. Can you imagine how much that wool must itch?!

Archived comment by CP:
Sean, either you spelled "mastication" wrong, or there must be some folks out there doing straaaange things with their veggies.

Archived comment by Sean Flynn:
Some bits that maybe someone will consider...
To those who say that vegan/veggies are holier-than-thou: Have you noticed all the pro-meat propaganda out there? Commercials for pork (the other white meat), ads for milk, McDonalds figures with hamburger heads, the 4 basic food groups, and on and on. Meat (and what some of us interpret as death and exploitation) is being thrown into our faces daily, but most of you might not notice as you agree with those sentiments. Now is it so wrong for us to state our argument?
To the guy who wanted logical argument: blecht! Logic don't mean a thing.
About the whole "humans were meant to eat meat" idea:Vegans/veggies aren't trying to read themes and justifications into history. We're saying that in this contemporary society and culture, there is absolutely no need to use animal products. The relationship people have with their food changes from place to place and from time to time, but in the US today, the consumption of animal products is more than unnecessary(I think those arguments have been made here already).
And to all the cuties who stretch the arguments from mastercation to soil tilling: we're all dealing with invisible lines we've drawn up in our heads. They have weight because we use those invented conceptions to live our lives. So in the effort to find balance, purity, and a good time for all, we don't use animal products.
Clever and/or thoughtful replies always welcomed.

Archived comment by Respiratory Fanatic:
You think Veganism is hardcore? Over the past few months, I have trained my lungs to filter out all gases non-essential to human life. The physical and mental benefits are simply too much for your nitrogen-saturated bodies to comprehend. Pitiful argon-breathers! Your end draws near! I and my pure-bodied brethren will soon rise to subjugate you all!
Bwa Ha Ha Ha!

Archived comment by Mike:
Sean:

Apology accepted.

Sarah:

What's "chukkar"?

Archived comment by Dillon:
Nothing but fruit and banana cake?
Geesh, whatta froot bat! :)

Archived comment by rachel:
I have a friend who eats nothing but banana cake & fruit, does that mean she's committing mass murder of fruit? or am I just overtired?

Archived comment by JandC55:
I couldn't resist posting on this one... I grew up on a farm and helped raise cattle. I read through the posts and was going to post something very similar to Gwendolyn's comments. I don't think that the animals we raised had a bad life at all. Actually, the last herd we had we never sold and they all died of old age, happy, in the pasture. As for the vegetarian argument, I myself raised individual cattle from birth to death. If a calf's mother wouldn't let it nurse, then the kids would bottle feed it and raise it in a separate pen. Even after all that, I still have no trouble eating meat. People say its cruel and gross, but God intended for us to use these creatures for consumption. My cattle were like pets, but they were raised for one reason, and that was to be eaten. I have no hostility toward vegetarians. I could never handle that kind of diet, myself, and almost admire someone who can. I don't really know what I'm trying to say here, but I guess that I'm just offering my point of view as someone who has been close to these animals. As a final note, I really don't think that vegetarianism can be compared to something like Puritanism or any other religion... excuse the pun, but, "it's a whole different animal"...

Archived comment by The Laughing God:
Okay, I am not *even* going to get into the veggie/carny debate. Suffice to say, I've debated this issue for years and it's been years since I've heard a new argument for ethical vegetarianism. As for all the old ones... well, I've resolved those to my own satisfaction.

Back to this comment, I'm really confused about why they won't eat honey anymore. I mean, I can understand that it's based upon the premise that it's wrong to exploit animals, but that's a premise I simply don't accept because no one bothers to give a logical basis for that argument. Honestly, I have heard very good logical arguments against eating mammals, birds, and other animals that express a certain level of awareness, but bees? Bees which have no nervous systems and do not feel pain? Which express no evidence what-so-ever of an awareness beyond base instinct? Really, I don't understand it at all. It just sounds like a knee-jerk, reactionary decision based upon a premise that even the practitioners don't really understand.

I don't mean to sound insulting with that, but unless someone can actually *logically* support the argument "people should never eat animals," then I stand by my statements. Anyway, I'm going to take this opportunity to plug Peter Singer's Practical Ethics. Presents excellent, highly logical arguments for a lot of the ethical issues we face today.

As for the "Puritan" analogy... erm, I can kind of see it, but it really is a false analogy. I won't go into why because, like our sharp-eared hostess, I believe the comment really wasn't meant seriously and so there's no reason to pick it apart logically.

Oh, and one last observation. Referring to non-vegetarianism as "wasteful" and "murderous" is not only debatable (at best), but inflammatory as well. Insulting people is *not* the way to get them to see your side of the argument.

Y'all can write me if you want to get more in-depth with this.

Archived comment by Jon:
mmmmmm...chicken granola

Sounds sorta like hotdogs to me...

Archived comment by Sarah:
Okay, here's something from someone who actually DOES go out and kill her own food. My husband and I raise various kinds of meat animals with our neighbor. He houses the feathered beasts, we house the ones on four feet. Let me tell you, the CRAP you buy at the meat counter is just that - CRAP. Nothing tastes better than a home-grown chicken, turkey, goose, pheasant, chukkar, pig, goat or cow. We treat our animals decently (no overcrowding, good food, plenty of water - even shade and water misters when it's hot - what a life!). In return, these marvelous animals provide us with sustenance when they become old enough to slaughter. And yes, I have killed animals with my bare hands, plucked/skinned them and gutted them. It's kind of gross, but when it winds up on your plate, it's worth it all.

What is REALLY disgusting is what places like Tyson Chicken Farms do with their flocks. Every morning, they gather up the dead birds (the type of chicken they use is genetically bred to grow very fast and not live a long life). Then they freeze them, and grind them up to be fed back to the other birds. I have sworn off all Tyson frozen foods after finding this out. I know chickens are omnivores, but deliberately feeding them their dead buddies just grosses me out.

Archived comment by Sean:
I'd like to apologize for everything that has been done to anybody at any point in History.

Archived comment by Oedalis:
Chicken, do you realize Cow was encouraging us to eat more of your kind in order to spare other cows? And here you are, defending Cow?
I think you two should have it out, one on one. I'd pay to watch it--and we could all eat the loser! But considering your relative sizes (unless you happen to be one of those rare giant chickens from the rainforests of Cachimbo) I think I'll be eating chicken for dinner.

Archived comment by The Chicken:
Hi Everyone,

Im the Chicken! I just have to say that what the Cow was trying to get at earlier down in the postings is something you humans call sarcasm. Unfortunatly us poultry do not have the lips smile at such humorous things, but I sure know that you people know what to do.

Stop taking things so seriously, that is what the cow was saying.

Thanks,

The Chicken

Archived comment by Seth:
I'd like to hear more about crushing bees between teeth. Those vile li'l hornswagglers have cause far to much cruel and unusual suffering to be allowed life-and-that-more-abundantly.

Archived comment by Jill:
How, now, brown cow are you to say that eating the animal that eats the same grass it poops on is such a terrible and icky thing? What is fertilizer again? The main difference between harvesting cows and harvesting humans is the lack of awareness on the cow's part. If this alien super race of which you speak tricked us into being eaten and we had no idea, it would be the same thing, but we wouldn't be mad. We wouldn't notice. As far as we are aware, cows don't know what's happening. If they do, may they descend upon us with flaming glory and thwart our evil ways. Cow families do not (and would not) have cow husbands. No animal in the wild has a father. Even in packs of wolves, the father has nothing to do with the child as a parental figure. that would be too hard to determine. Plenty of vegetables are hidden in the ground. That's less obvious to us than eating the thing wandering around that tastes good after you set it on fire. how many spinach jackets do you see? Just think about that...
All I'm really saying is than an attack either way is still an attack. Whether you think it's the right thing or not. Well, I shouldn't say think, but I can't really find a better way to put it.
I'm all for animal rights. Don't get me wrong. But as Penny stated,
"I almost became a vegetarian when I thought about having to kill my own food. Would I be able to do that? Then some one pointed out that either I was going to eat an animal that has been killed quickly(hopefully), or that animal would have been likely killed in the wild by a not-so-gentle predator."
That is a very good point. Vegetarianism and veganism are all very good, and meat eating is also just fine.
Ok, I think I'm done ranting now.

Archived comment by Denise:
I almost cringe at the thought of adding another comment..
but I would like to share that I am a meat-eater..have never even considered vegerarianism (except for about 2 days in highschool)...but I'll tell you something that *did* give me pause:
When my son (now 9) was 4 or 5 and realized that beef=cow and pork=pig. With fish and chicken he kept saying.."but what are their OTHER names?" For a while there, he wouldn't eat anything until he knew exactly what animal it used to me.. and Old MacDonald Had a Farm became a little less fun to sing. Our family eats meat, but I will never forget seeing that through his innocence.

Sorry for beating a dead horse.
(ok. that was in bad taste..hehe)

Archived comment by Oedalis:
Cow...from Cow and Chicken? Super-Cow a rescate!!!
I respect your point of view Cow and yes it does sound gross, but...I haven't died from it yet!
Then again, I haven't died from it yet.
Anyway, Monsanto is so bad I cannot even begin list all the horrible things they do. I remember eating---er, reading (all this talk of eating meat, sheesh) reading a pages long list of their crimes. It's like they're evil. I really think they are. I would never have said it about any corporation before, cause it just sounds stupid, and it does, but....you just need to read up on them and you'd totally know what I mean.
So that's more change from me...I think, if you add it up, you'd have about $2.50 by now...

Archived comment by The Cow:
Hi,

I am a cow, and I have been elected by all the cows of the world to educate you humans on why vegitarianism is such a good choice. I was elected on the basis of my super-cowin intillect, and the fact that my milk produces 25% butter fat.

Here is what the cows of the planet have decided should be told to you humans:

1) We are cows. We do not bathe. We carry tapeworms. Have you ever had a 30 foot tapeworm living in your small intestine? It's not pretty.
2) Do you know what we eat? It's really gross! We eat the same grass we poop on! And you want to eat us? Even thinking about that makes me queasy.

3) As for drinking our milk, that it totally gross too. Think about it, you are drinking a liquid(!) that comes out of an animal. For god's sake, we can't even get our calves to drink the whole thing, why do you want to?

4) Cows are people too! We have little cows, and cow wives, and cow husbands, that go to cow work. Imagine if some alien super-race came upon the earth and rounded every human up to make people-burgers. I wonder if you taste like chicken...

So, as cow representative of the world, I implore to stop eating us, and eat more chicken. If you do not, we shall have to activate the beacon buried under Cow Mountain 10,000 years ago by our cow-ancestors, and call the wrath of Cow, destroyer of worlds, and secretor of lactose filled liquids. And we all know, that isn't a pretty sight.

Thank you,

The Cow

moo

(Please excuse all typing errors, hooves are not anitomically suited for typing on QWERTY keyboards.)

Archived comment by Bryan:
ugh, please forgive all my spelling and grammar errors. I need to proofread better.

Bryan

Archived comment by Bryan:
Gwen,
I'm sorry if I implied that every farm or company is bad. I certainly did not mean it that way I come from rural Missouri and a lot of my friends are farmers...Heck, my Dad grew up on a family farm and my Mom's Father grew up on a farm. So I'm sorry if I overgeniralized. There are more good farmers than bad...I think the Agri(Treatment) debate has more validity(At least where I'm from) in the poultry and hog industries. Both of these meat industries are control almost exclusively by the corps(Monsanto ect) There are no individual large scale independent chicken farms anymore and the hog industry is reaching that point. And, sadly, when the Corps take over, standards tend to go down at the expense of profits.

Again, I did not mean to slam honest God fearing Farmers, my main beef is with those farmers(corp or indy) that do submit there animals to ill treatment.

May there always be independent Farmers!

Bryan

Archived comment by Seleta:
p.s. to "Some Random Guy" and others who have been the victims (whether veg or me) of PREDJUDICE from the ranks of others....sorry that some of us on both sides of this fence can't keep our fingers out of others faces...

how about some mexican food as a peace offering??
;-)

Archived comment by Mike:
Whoa.
I turn my back on this site for two days, and look what happens. . .
This vegan/carnivore debate seems pretty heated. Perhaps this signals the beginning of an approaching schism in humankind. . . a time when vegans and carnivores drift further and further apart . . .marrying and breeding exclusively with those of their own kind . . .until they evolve into two separate specieslike the Eloi and the Morlocks in that book "The Time Machine:" the former group having eradicated all non-useful life on the surface of the earth to make room for the fruit trees and vegetables they need to survive; the latter group surviving by feeding upon the last remaining meat source available to them-- the vegetarian Eloi. . .
Or maybe it's just a matter of individual choice that other people don't have much right to comment on.
Whatever.
To get back to the original purpose of this site . . .
"Don't get the veal! You know what veal is?? Veal is GOAT!!"
---one freshman to a group as they stood in line at the school cafeteria; several of them promptly got out of that line and went over to the grill--where they all ordered cheeseburgers. I had to pretend to tie my shoe so no one would see me laughing . . .

Archived comment by Seleta:
me thinks that the "horrors" bryan mentions might better be seen in places like the panhandle of texas (where i live) where there are feed lots that "house" many many cows in few square feet...the cows have very limited movement...are shot full of only God knows what to keep them alive if they get sick (just ask the local guy who used to make dog food from the ones that didn't make it and had to quit because of the "mysterious" illnesses that began plaguing many pets)...the methane gas concentration can travel 60 miles or so on a good windy day, etc...these cows are "well cared for" from a medical perspective, but nothing like they should be for best nutritional value or humane treatment. yes, by the way, i am a meat-eater...love my vegetarian and vegan friends...and prefer to buy range-fed cattle...

Archived comment by Gwendolyn:
I must say that I am very offended by the comment Bryan made ("the horrors of agri-business"). When was the last time you visited a farm, buddy? I was raised on a farm and milked cows all through high school at a number of different farms in my area. Never once in all that time did I ever see any "horrors" on either the dairy farms or the beef farms. In fact, my husbands family raises beef cows, and I can guarantee there are none of your horrors there. Those cows are actually tame to the point that you can walk up to every single one and pet them. They are not abused or tortured in any way. I understand that people have their opinions and beliefs, but I also think that a lot these same people have only been told one side of the story. I am sure you all have heard the stories of how some farms treat their animals, and I am sorry that these few people are basis of the stereotypes. But what you cannot deny is that there are many more "good" farmers than there are "bad" farmers. One other thing you mentioned, Bryan, was that you didn't approve of the way the "farm firms" did business, and I will agree with you there. The large farming corporations are putting the small family farms out of business in many areas of the United States. Unfortunately, these days the only way to make a buck is with a large corporation. One of the places I milked cows at was a large corporation. We milked nearly 5000 cows 3 times a day. There were people milking 24 hours a day. But never once was any of those cows abused. We had strict rules against hitting the cows and anyone caught hitting a cow with an object or a closed fist was immediately dismissed. I saw more than one guy lose his job because he hit an animal. These animals lived in luxury. The calf pens at this farm were state-of-the-art. I bet that one calf pen cost more than my yearly salary. I'm sorry for all the ranting and raving, but I am not sorry for setting the facts straight.

Archived comment by Tarin:
I think the reason people have such issues with vegans and the like is summed up in one of my favorite scenes from PCU. Kudos if you know what I am talking about... :)~

Archived comment by steff:
oh. my. god. am i allowed to say i told you so? =) and now that i've wasted most of my work morning, i'm going to go eat a meaty lunch with my vegitarian friend. no, i'm not making this up, that's what i'm doing. you guys have at, i'll be back tomorrow to waste another afternoon. =)

Archived comment by Bryan:
Inbal,
Animal suffering is not comparable to humans because humans aren't raised for consumption and therefore not exposed to the horrers of agi-business. It's a gray area not black or white as you're making it out to be. I don't approve of the way those farm-firms do business. Howver the reality is that it's tough to find non-AB raised meat and so I eat their meat without bitching. I don't like vegetables well enough to switch and I really don't see the problem with dairy or honey or whatnot. Face it, we are a meat eating society and there ain't enough natural meat to substain society. Like I said, I don't care what you eat so long as you spare me the pithy rhetoric.

Hot dogs are 50% water and 40% waste parts and 10% real meat.

Archived comment by Penny:
I almost became a vegetarian when I thought about having to kill my own food. Would I be able to do that? Then some one pointed out that either I was going to eat an animal that has been killed quickly(hopefully), or that animal would have been likely killed in the wild by a not-so-gentle predator. We are animals, the difference is we are animals with consciences. You must make your own choice and feel good about it no matter what some one else says.

Archived comment by Meat Eater:
oops, sorry for getting off on that tangent.

Archived comment by Meat Eater:
I am a meat eater. I am also an animal activist. The two are not mutually exclusive. I pay more for slaughtered animals that were treated decently before death. i.e. free-range chickens and turkeys. I have never had a problem with eating meat. What I have a problem with is shampoo companies cutting rabbit eyelids off, then pouring shampoo in to see if they get hurt. Animal testing is not only pointless, but just plain sick.

Archived comment by Paul:
I guess I'll toss in my $1/50...

Humans were evolved to eat meat as part of their diet. It shows in how we're constructed, with canines and sharp incisors; it shows in fossil records as animal skulls crushed by a whack with an antelope thighbone; it shows in our appetites for things high in fat and protein. It ain't coincidence that things like potato chips appeal to us- our bodies try to get fat in any way they can, since in nature that's usually only found readily available in animals and they aren't going to just leave it lying around, if you know what I mean.

Vegetarianism is healthier than the customary diet we have here in the US because we were not evolved to eat as much meat as we do. Think about it- how hard would people have had to hunt for there to be meat with every meal? We're meant to eat a higher proportion of veggies than we typically do.

But there are some nutrients that are difficult at best to get strictly from vegetable matter which are readily available in meats, so strict hardcore vegetarians must consume vitamin supplements to stay healthy. I know a few people like that, and frankly I'm a lot healthier than they are. (Which is saying a lot considering that I'm a fairly sedentary engineering student these days.)

The whole argument of "not eating anything with a face" is really just projection on the part of people imagining what it would be like to be that cow or pig or chicken. The animals aren't really all that aware of such abstract concepts as objecting to being eaten. I do agree, however, that the animals should be treated humanely- that is, raised in reasonable surroundings and killed as painlessly as possible.

Ultimately, the choice of being omnivorous or vegetarian or vegan is up to the individual and is no one else's business. Vegans have no right to take a more-righteous-than-thou stance, and the rest of us have no right to take a you're-a-tree-hugging-hippy-freak stance. What you put in your mouth is entirely up to you.

Archived comment by Oedalis:
Inbal,
If eating meat weren't an instinct...then why did humans start eating meat in the first place?

Archived comment by Inbal:
I have been a vegetarian seince I was 6 years old, and like some random guy I think that eating dead animals is grouss but I have NEVER tried to change anyone's mind about eating meat. although I think what people do to animals is very very wrong I dont think making people be vegetarians is the soloution.
I disagree with Jill about what she said that eating meat is an instinct, I think that if people werent being tought that they are supposed to eat meat they would have never felt the need to do it.
I also disagree with Brayn about his stupid comment that if animals are raised for food then it's o.k. to it theme, animals aren't supposed to be raised for food thier supposed to be free, how would you like it if you were raised in the same horrible conditions that these animals are being raised in and then one day to be slaughtered and sttufed in someon's sandwich?
what I wrote is'nt ment to change anyone's mind because I dont have a problem with people who eat meat(everyone in my familiy but me eat meat) just with the abuse of animals.(But that's not the reason that I'm a vegetarian).

Archived comment by Larry Hosken:
For a different perspective, I think we'd all like to hear from someone who eats bees.

Archived comment by Oedalis:
Just when I think it's safe to turn my back...almost thirty messages in one day, new record for In Passing.
As someone who has gone from omnivore, to vegetarian, to vegan, back to vegetarian and finally to omnivore again...I think there's room for me to comment here.
First of all, I don't think it's anyone's place to be harshly judgemental on this issue. *That* if nothing else, is Puritanical.
No it isn't hard to cook for vegans/vegetarians. I have a book the size of a dictionary full of suitable and delicous full course meals for any vegan/vegitarian or otherwise.

I sympathize with you, Passerby, for my friends also made it difficult for me in my first couple transitions, always undermining my efforts to pursue a healthier lifestyle for myself. That said, I agree that meat does have some necessary nutrients that cannot easily be substitued. I am not wild about meat to begin with but it does have it's place in a healthy diet.

In response to the commment, "If we aren't supposed to eat animals, then why are they made of meat?"
Be happy that I know this isn't a valid argument. You don't want to give me an excuse to go out tomorrow, kill you and eat you for dinner. After all, you're made of "meat". However, fortunately for you, I'm going to assume you were kidding and are not, in fact, mentally deficient. Seriously, though, don't mind me *G*---see, I'm grinning.

Passerby, I must agree, with Montygirl I don't think hotdogs qualify as meat. I am shocked, that as a vegetarian, you're willing to put that in your mouth. Hotdogs are notorious for being stuffed with parts the animal doesn't even know it has.

Jill, you put it all succinctly and beautifully, brava.
Some Random Guy, again, sympathies. I've never come across a defensive meat-eater, during my bout with veganism/vegetarianism (not to make it sound like a disease..."...during my bout with E.coli...")Anyway, but I think their defensiveness may have something to do with other vegans/vegetarians they have come across who have been more judgemental than yourself. After all, the majority eat meat, and majorities tend not to be naturally defensive.
And at this point I think I've run out of things to say, so I'll stop my mouth flapping and I think maybe I'll go put out that fire in the kitchen before spreads to the living room....must protect the computer at all costs, y'know...

Archived comment by djiinna:
Once upon a time, i had a friend that claimed to be vegetarian. I went over to her house to visit her, and i brought my dog. We were in her room chatting, while my dog was sniffing around under her bed, when, alas!, she found something of interest. A very old, crusty, hard looking slice of bacon. I looked at my friend in awe, because, like i said, she claimed to be a vegetarian, and had meat in her room! Months later, she finally confessed about her secret cravings and consuming of meat. I also caught her stealing some of my stuff, and never trusted the bitch again. The End.
*Disclaimer* this story is not meant to talk "smack" against anyone for their dietary preferences, just a funny story i like to tell. It is *all* true though. Thank you for your time.

Archived comment by Some Random Guy:
As a vegetarian I must say that the hostility seems to be a two way street. I have never criticized a meat eater, or told anyone how to live their life (except that I have told a few people that stealing is wrong (it really is), and, okay, I once told a friend to dump his evil girlfriend, but he really had to, she was ruining his life). The number of meat eaters who have jumped on my case, acting as though I have told them that eating meat is wrong when I say that I do not eat meat is remarkable. A lot of meat eaters are very defensive about it...

A little illustrative dialog:

"So want to go to Husky Boy Burgers?"
"No, well, actually I don't eat meat, how about Mexican food?"
"What? What's the matter with eating meat?"
"Well, I don't like it. It just seems gross to me, eating a dead animal."
"What, are you trying to say I am doing something wrong? That it is wrong? Why would God give us canines if we werent supposed to eat meat? It is the only way to stay healthy."

...Conversational degeneration continues until I manage to change the subject...

Archived comment by Jill:
I think Denis Leary said it best when he said, "Not eating meat is a choice. Eating meant is an INSTINCT!" Not to say that those who don't eat meat are bad and evil, just that those who do aren't either. Animals eat other animals and our body is designed to consume dead animals. It's not murder if they're raised for it. I mean, if we just went in to the wild and consumed all that we beheld until there was no more, that would be murderous and wasteful. That's how it started out, but there are too many of us now and we can't do that. We raise them to eat them. If you don't want to eat them, great. You have chosen a different lifestyle. Go right ahead and continue what you do. Just don't be ganging up on we who eat the meat just because we aren't like you. That's basically the same as racism in some ways. That is all.

Archived comment by Stacey Bice:
Anyone can be obsessive/puritanistic about anything if they choose to be. I think that the people who have to force their views (vegetarianism, religion etc) on other people don't have a deep personal understanding of the ideas behind said topics. Vegetarianism is in part about being non-violent. To try and make some one practice vegetarianism is a sort of force, therefore in my mind, contrary to the ideas of the practice.

Archived comment by Montygirl:
Dear Passerby,

I don't think hotdogs should count as meat.