My own life got disturbingly close to clown porn last weekend. Some friends and I went to a bar that usually is pretty laid back, but that evening we walked in and were witnesses to the spectacle of about a hundred scantily clad clowns. Dancing! Drinking! Making merry!

There were male clowns, female clowns, scary clowns, European clowns, armless clowns (that's not a typo for "harmless"; I mean without arms), alternative clowns, sexy clowns dancing on tables being tipped by non-sexy clowns, clown couples kissing, nerd clowns...

I think I'm going to have flashbacks to that moment for the rest of my life.

are you sure this wouldn't fit better in the dreams thread? did you pinch yourself to make sure? although, you might have been pinching yourself to try to wake yourself up from that nightmare.

Damn! Really?!? Where is this place? I think I may need to make a pilgrimage there...

This was at the Rendezvous bar in the Belltown area of Seattle. The organization with the clowns ended up being the Kook Club. (www.kookclub.com) Maybe you could start your own local chapter. Or maybe I shouldn't encourage the mayhem...

I'm too close to D.C. There's enough clown sex going on there in the government without me contributing to it in the private sector...

Amen to hypo's comment

...Okay, the tape player in my mind needs to have its batteries taken out. I read that and immediately started hearing one of the Labyrinth songs - "Dance, Magic Dance." Mrf.

Not that it's a bad song, just that it really don't go with the Steeleye Span my computer's playing.

Dammit, Igirly, it took me three re-reads to figure out that "Firefighter Our Last Name" was not actually on the shirt; you were just hiding your last name. The shirt actually said something like, "Firefighter Smith" or "Firefighter Johnson."

Silly girly.

You're slow Matt, it only took me One re-read to figure that one out.

And Igirly (channeling Monk here), does that mean you give mouth-to-mouth resesucitation?

Why does "channeling Monk" sound like some kind of euphemism I'd rather not think about too much?

I had no idea you used your last name as your nickname.
*buh dum chick*
Thank you, I'll be here till wednesday, no please, hold your applause...

Yeah brian28306 you did. But the coolest thing that Word Perfect did was the 'display codes' option so you could see what sort of formating was taking place. Very useful. I know that the US Gov. used Word Perfect for many years trying to resist the onslaught of MS Word. An acceptable free alternative these days is Sun's Star Office
http://wwws.sun.com/software/star/staroffice
Well it's free to non-profits...

Close enough, I use OpenOffice, another free alternative from Sun that is closely related. Open Office 1.1 just came out and has some great features, even some that Other Office Suite doesn't have. How about export to .PDF and .SWF for starters?

http://download.services.openoffice.org/ooo/dev_docs/features/1.1/index.html

Slugbuggy, I was going to correct you on your use of the word 'ironic', but then I thought about it and realised you were right :-)

Ironic is a word that I just avoid using, because it annoys me so much that people mistake it to mean 'unfortunate' or 'coincidental', but there are some situations where it's not so clear whether the word 'ironic' is right or not. So I find it's better to err on the side of caution instead of making the same mistake myself.

An Australian comedian called Will Anderson had a great skit about Alanis Morissette's song, 'Ironic', and how none of the lyrics actually describe ironic events. One of my friends once pointed out to me that the only thing that is actually ironic about the song is that it's called 'ironic' but there's nothing ironic in it. Here's a link to a site that isn't by Will Anderson, but pretty much says the same thing:

http://www.mellowfellow.com/ironic.shtml

"All your base are belong to us"

As synchronicity would have it, I had a debate with Mycroft about that very same Alanis song, just the other day...(a true Napalmian Debate)...so, with that in mind, excuse me while I indulge in a bit of sophistry. (Or, if you just hate it when I do this, please move along...there's nothing to see here. *Grin*)

First, the lyrics to the song in question:

Ironic - Alanis Morrisette
An old man turned ninety-eight
He won the lottery and died the next day
It's a black fly in your Chardonnay
It's a death row pardon two minutes too late
Isn't it ironic... don't you think

(chorus)
It's like rain on your wedding day
It's a free ride when you've already paid
It's the good advice that you just didn't take
Who would've thought... it figures

Mr. Play It Safe was afraid to fly
He packed his suitcase and kissed his kids good-bye
He waited his whole damn life to take that flight
And as the plane crashed down he thought
"Well, isn't this nice."And isn't it ironic ... don't you think

(repeat chorus)

Well life has a funny way of sneaking up on you
When you think everything's okay and everything's going right
And life has a funny way of helping you out when
You think everything's gone wrong and everthing blows up
In your face

A traffic jam when you're already late
A no-smoking sign on your cigarette break
It's like 10,000 spoons when all you need is a knife
It's meeting the man of my dreams
And then meeting his beautiful wife
And isn't it ironic... don't you think
A little too ironic.. and yeah I really do think...

(repeat chorus)

Well life has a funny way of sneaking up on you
And life has a funny way of helping you out
Helping you out.

And now, the term in controversy:

i·ron·ic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-rnk) also i·ron·i·cal (-rn-kl)
adj.
1. Characterized by or constituting irony.
2. Given to the use of irony. See Synonyms at sarcastic.
3. Poignantly contrary to what was expected or intended: madness, an ironic fate for such a clear thinker.

i·roni·cal·ly adv.

i·roni·cal·ness n.

Usage Note: The words ironic, irony, and ironically are sometimes used of events and circumstances that might better be described as simply “coincidental” or “improbable,” in that they suggest no particular lessons about human vanity or folly. Thus 78 percent of the Usage Panel rejects the use of ironically in the sentence In 1969 Susie moved from Ithaca to California where she met her husband-to-be, who, ironically, also came from upstate New York. Some Panelists noted that this particular usage might be acceptable if Susie had in fact moved to California in order to find a husband, in which case the story could be taken as exemplifying the folly of supposing that we can know what fate has in store for us. By contrast, 73 percent accepted the sentence Ironically, even as the government was fulminating against American policy, American jeans and videocassettes were the hottest items in the stalls of the market, where the incongruity can be seen as an example of human inconsistency.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Grokked all that, boys and girls? I knew you could!

So, really...nearly all of the things in the song could be argued as being, in fact, ironic - especially if you consider that the whole purpose of the song is, clearly, "exemplifying the folly of supposing that we can know what fate has in store for us."

-Jn-
Efreeti Sophist

Aaagh! I'm bailing out of this one. I should have known not to try to get in with the big league grammatinarians. It's probably not wise to start discussing grammar with Northern Americans, anyway, because from there it's just a short step to spelling, and it's all downhill from there.

"All your base are belong to us"

Yeah, that's what's missing from most discussions on irony: the notion that Fate itself is orchestrating events in spite of our wishes or expectations in a very pointed and umambiguous manner, and in a way in which the outcome neatly reflects back upon the original situation or expectation that we had. I think the manner in which our plans are confounded is important, not just the fact that it happens at all.

For example, if I'm all set to go off to clown college and fulfill my lifelong dream, but the college closes down right before classes are to start, so I become a porn star instead- it seems like fate is interfering with my plans, but it doesn't feel ironic, in that the outcome doesn't relect back on my intentions in a way that has some sense of aesthetic correctness or fit.

Now, if my plans to attend clown college are foiled by fate, and I wind up doing pornos, but by chance my first role is in clown porn, and I eventually end up a world-famous star of clown porn, that's ironic, I think.

Anyway, as Joe pointed out, and which led me to this page, which reiterates his point about Alanis' song actually being correct in its assumptions, there's a class of situational (as opposed to verbal, Socratic, or dramatics ironies) irony referred to as irony of Fate, or cosmic irony, which is what we've been talking about here.

However, there's another type of situational irony which doesn't seem to be a product of fate, but of one's own human folly or tragic flaw, as previously stated. For example, the original "professor" quote (Is it ironic that the quote which fostered a discussion on irony is under the "Um" heading and not "Ironic"? I don't know.), which I thought was ironic for the following reasons:

• The professor thinks it's incongruous that she can be so scatterbrained and yet be employed in a profession that's of an intellectual nature.
• Her logic overlooks the fact that an "absentminded professor" is a predominant stereotype, and that she's the very embodiment of the achetype.
• It's because she's so scatterbrained that she doesn't think of this.

There's no Fate involved in this situation, it's purely a product of her own flaws, yet it has the same feel of reflexivity or mirroring to it which gives it an ironic feel. The reality of the situation fits back into her subjective perception of the situation in a way that contradicts or perverts it, but is somehow pleasingly aesthetic in its perversity.

My main point is that I think irony is something that's more sensed or intuited than it is perceived intellectually or analysed clinically. That's why most of the sources on the web I looked up are rife with examples of what the writers think are or aren't examples of irony, but there aren't any generic definitions which can neatly explain exactly what irony is, and apply to all cases.

I think this explanation is close, assuming I understand what it actually means:

Irony exists in the tension between vehicle and tenor, a message detached from its overt signifier.

Hey, keep the tenor part out of it! Just because you're jealous that you can't sing the melody line, don't take it out on tenors. ;-p

the instinctual apprehension of irony, then. the debate as to flavors of irony, the literary device, even the word itself all arise from the fact that that we can recognize it - until, of course, it creeps up on us again. dammit. even when we can't pin it down to explain it or categorize it, we get all belatedly epiphinal when we see it. kind of like the pot of petunias. kiiiiiind of like how i just KNOW tim's gonna have a field day with the turn this has taken.

of course, you could (well, one could. i'm certainly not going to - it's not my job, after all. *grin*) argue that our own flaws are both conferred by fate and in turn create it; holgraphic, enfolded synchronicity and all.

why wouldn't you want it to rain on your wedding day, that's what I wanna know.

isn't ironic ...it's prophetic.
cynical??
Me??
Noooooooo
Anyway.. since steff is egging me on..
My view of this is that what happens to you is suppose to happen and it happens exactly at the right time to impact your life in a way that will teach you a lesson, give you insight, or work off outstanding karma.
That being said... Personal irony is , indeed, fate but, though you don't realize it, caused by you.
Or as I tell steff...the universe is paying attention to you.
Ex: On my drive to work I'm zipping along a happy little goon and suddenly I'm behind what appears to be a hat and a pair of blue/gray hands driving a 1950 Edsel at 20 miles and hour.
After 3 or 4 minutes of gnashing my teeth and bringing down ancient Sumerian curses on hatman there's a fork in the road where, if I hang a left , zip down that street, and take a right, I'll end up at the same light I would have if I'd stayed behind the slug.
So I do..
And everytime Everytime I do I get to the light, it turns red, and mister giddy-up goes and is in front of me again.
Now..
To me it's obvious that I'm suppose to learn patience.
( why I continually ignore the universe and roll the dice when I KNOW the outcome is another story)
The point of this long rambling story is that fate has Everything to do with irony, IMHO.
So what may be ironic to you may not seem ironic to others.
and 2 cool points to sluggy for illustrating his story with clownporn.
__ __ " ...And Mr. Stiggs is trying to kill fish with his mind..."

teach me some o' those ancient sumerian curses, huh? i only know a couple... i wing it a lot. it makes for weird.

i think those may be the first cool points tim's ever given out. hehehehehe.

Yeah steff - I give 'em out like they're going out of style, but tim? Not since the last time the Sox beat the Yanks in the Pennant.

Make me come out there and hurl you to the ground old man.
holes in your head and all
; )
___ " ...And Mr. Stiggs is trying to kill fish with his mind..."

Hey I ain't as old as Zimmer!! Nor do I know near as much about baseball as he does.
Not gonna say about the holes in my head...

Um, if you don't have any holes in your head, how do you breath? How do you hear? I thought those holes were kind of important to that whole breathing/hearing/smelling/tasting thing.

I was talking about those additional holes that have been added to enable me to receive signals from 'elsewhere'.

Plus, of course, as a Dad, I have eyes in the back of my head and can read minds too. As does Paul I'm sure.

Well, why didn't you say so? Oh right, you said we weren't going to mention those holes. Got it.

"By Nebuchadnezzar's beard!"

Hmm, that might be Babylonian instead of Sumerian.

Why is this making me think of Ghostbusters?

Don't answer, it's rhetorical. I do know why, just wanted to mention it.

*grin*

Okay. I guess they call it a "fatal flaw" for some reason.

Other than that, I always get the feeling you understood what I said more than I did.

Whoah... Back the truck up... beep, beep, beep
I think that Senor Napalm has solidified his credentials as a Militant Grammarian for all time. Nicely analyzed and well put. 3 MG pts.

Thank you, Joe. You just put into words what I've been inarticulately trying to tell people for years.

Thanks for the link, An Aussie. It's hilarious what they said about the song, but now I'm torn! I'm an Alanis fan (mainly because of her newer songs, though)but I'm also obsessed with using the English language properly. Stop the abuse!

**Correct me if I'm wrong, but I am now doomed to make many grammatical errors in following posts, no?**

civil servant
airline schedule
plastic glasses

Seen recently: a hand-lettered sign on a roadside seafood stand that said "Shrimp so big they scare my cat!"

My favorite is "Microsoft Works." It's the name of a dumbed-down Word-esque program that my mother uses because she got used to it and doesn't like Word.

*shrugs* To each his own.

Actually Inuki, Works was the first 'integrated' package the Microsoft put out. It worked on a Mac and on PCs (this was in the 80's). It was hot stuff back then as it had a database, a spreadsheet and a word processor. It was the first word processor that Eve learned.

Now the first 'word processor' that I used was actually a line editor in Primos (a UNIX variant). I wrote a whole report using that line editor. vi is a modern version of it. And once you get used to the power of a line editor, WYSIWYG is tame.

As I like to be pedantic about computer history : primos - running on prime computers - only is a variant of Unix in that it shares some of its features; technically it's not exactly derived from Unix and is a much more distant cousin to Unix than e.g. BSD or Linux (or even Irix and Solaris).

Sorry, couldn't resist. *grin*

Only you peegee, only you. Pr1me (that's how their logo looked) was started by some AT&T 'refugees' and the operating system was remarkablely similar to UNIX. Enough so that when I was working on a Prime at work and a UNIX system at Berkeley in the 80's I could use some of the same scripts. If you looked at the Kernel of Primos it was quite similar to UNIX even down to the ability to modify it.
Walks away muttering about smark alec Danes... These young whippersnappers...

If you think that's weird, how about student-teaching, and then having some of your former students take a class with you the next fall? It was an introductory sociology course that I had to take for my degree. Two of my former grade twelve students were also taking the class.

As I mentioned above, first semester teaching, teaching guys I'd been taking classes with for several years. (In one case, teaching a guy I'd been in grade school with since fourth grade, all the way through high school, here to the university.)

PLUS, one of the guys I was teaching was in a class with me the SAME semester. I'd teach him right after lunch, and that evening, we'd be in automata theory class together...

And I always sorta felt strange teaching students when I was a Lecturer and just a few years older than them.

Oh yeah, I definitely know how that works... especially the first semester I taught, when I had 4-5 guys in my class who I'd been taking classes with for several years....